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  #21  
Old July 23rd, 2013, 03:23 PM
JStroop JStroop is offline
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Default Re: BREAKING! Woman Killed on Texas Giant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonR View Post
This is correct. The Giant's restraints are hydraulic, which are fairly standard on new coasters nowadays.

But what's wrong with hydraulics? There's two independent, redundant hydraulic lines for each restraint and they're arguably safer than ratcheting lapbars since they're infinitely adjustable and don't have to conform to pre-determined positions...

Here's a diagram explaining how they work in detail:



If hydraulics are good enough to be used in car brakes, why don't you trust them for coaster restraints?
I have my own personal misgivings because hydraulics do not provide a physical mechanism to prevent the movement of the lap bar.

Car brakes are different - you still have the emergency brake to have a physical mechanism to apply the brakes for when the hydraulics fail. Hydraulics are not rigid. I don't have an engineering degree, and I don't know the science behind the new mechanisms, but I've seen hydraulic assemblies overgome by a certain amount of force. I'm sure that these restraint systems are rated to withstand far more force than would be conceivably be placed on them during the normal course of the ride. I'm just surprised that there's no mechanical redundancy.
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  #22  
Old July 23rd, 2013, 05:04 PM
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AviRaider AviRaider is offline
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Default Re: BREAKING! Woman Killed on Texas Giant!

I must admit, that when I first rode Giant it was a little weird, with the hydraulic lap bar, not hearing that familiar click. I'm used to that familiar ratcheting sound and that medievel kind of jerky movement that those type of lap bars show. So to my surprise the new lap bars come down gently and very smoothly with just the faintest give. I think for many that very slight give can be unnerving. With the old system it was usually pretty firm with little to no give. I too am not an engineer but I do know how much hydraulics are used in daily life and in situations with larger safety implications; such as airplanes, cars, elevators etc. But I have to wonder, that in theory, with enough opposite pressure, you could push back a cylinder under pressure. With that being said I'm confident in the design and have no reservations riding with such systems. I'm just agreeing with Stroop about no mechanical redundancy.
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  #23  
Old July 23rd, 2013, 05:44 PM
BrandonR BrandonR is offline
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Default Re: BREAKING! Woman Killed on Texas Giant!

Yeah as mentioned airplanes are also mainly operated by hydraulics. If they're good enough for controlling passenger jets I don't see why simple lapbars can't utilize them.

Mechanical redundancy isn't necessarily better, either. Ratchet teeth can give way (as can the pawl), pins can break, springs can snap, etc. With so many more moving parts I'd bet ratcheting restraints are even less reliable than hydraulic ones.

For a hydraulic restraint to fail you'd have to have a huge, catastrophic leak in two totally separate, sealed lines. Not very likely at all, in fact probably less likely than a ratcheting lapbar system having a catastrophic failure.
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  #24  
Old July 23rd, 2013, 07:48 PM
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Parktimes Parktimes is offline
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Default Re: BREAKING! Woman Killed on Texas Giant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krista 96-02 View Post
I've been of the presumption that the person who made the "clicks" statement was under duress and, since the lap bars do not make any noise, s/he used the term to describe how far down the bars were--not because they actually heard them click. Then again, I also believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt and I usually get burned by it. I wasn't there to see it, so...
Well, she may have been distraught and she may have been misqouted, but she is very specific about the clicks and none of her statements really add up:

First, she basically states that she saw the accident:
"She goes up like this. Then when it drops to come down, that's when it (the safety bar) released and she just tumbled," said [the witness].

But, she also says she was waiting in line.

[The same witness] said she was waiting in line to get on the ride when the accident happened.

You couldn't see the accident from the loading zone. So, there is no way that she saw her "tumble".

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/20...#ixzz2ZuqMsPi2

Then she makes the statement about the clicks:

"They didn't secure her right. One of the employees from the park -- one of the ladies -- she asked her to click her more than once, and they were like, `As long you heard it click, you're OK.' Everybody else is like, `Click, click, click.' Hers only clicked once. Hers was the only one that went down once, and she didn't feel safe, but they let her still get on the ride," [the witness] told The Dallas Morning News.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/20...#ixzz2ZuqZvdyy

This has been refuted by the lady's son-in-law who stated that there was no discussion about the lap bar.

Also, as discussed, the restraints don't make clicks. She is very specific not only that it "clicked", but that the number of "clicks" was discussed.

Then she is quoted as speculating that she fell based on hearing a scream:

Brown said she was next in line behind the woman and saw her being strapped into her seat next to her son. "We heard her screaming. We were like, `Did she just fall?"' Brown said.

It seems a real stretch to believe anyone would conclude that a certain scream was a particular person falling, especially when no one at that time knew that anyone had fallen. In addition, above she is quoted as saying she saw her fall.

This is minor, but her son wasn't seating next to her. It now seems that the seat next to her was empty. The son-in-law and daughter were in front of her. I'm not sure how she would know that it was her son or son in law in any case.


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/20...#ixzz2ZuqhhqKn

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/metro...t-accident.ece

The she casts blame on the employee:

Brown told the Dallas Morning News that the woman had expressed concern to a park employee that she was not properly secured in her seat. "He was basically nonchalant," Brown said. "He was, like, 'As long as you heard it click, you're fine.' Hers was the only one that went down once, and she didn't feel safe. But they let her still get on the ride."

Again, this could be bad reporting, but now the employee is a male, where as before she was very specific that it was a female.

http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/nationa...#ixzz2ZurJg2kq

If she wasn't on the train with her, which she doesn't seem to be, I'm not even sure how she could know who fell. She should have gone out on the next train and wouldn't even be in the station when the red train returned. I understand that the next train was stopped and unloaded outside of the station. (That is my understanding, I wasn't there.) In any case, she isn't quoted anywhere as being in the station when the train came back in. If she wasn't, she could only speculate that the lady she saw leave was the same person that fell until she saw the picture.

I understand that eye witnesses are ferquently wrong on the details and that people are often misquoted in the press. But, I really think that it is irresponsible to blame the employee in the national press unless you are really sure about what you saw and are saying.
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  #25  
Old July 24th, 2013, 12:28 AM
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cleusk cleusk is offline
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Default Re: BREAKING! Woman Killed on Texas Giant!

One of the things that I've learned in Historiography class and reconfirmed in personal research is this :

Whenever you have a big event, there will often be several different accounts that will conflict with each other. People will lie, allow bias to cloud judgement, jump to conclusions, and twist facts to fit their version of the story.

So I'm going to wait another two or three months before making a conclusion.
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  #26  
Old July 24th, 2013, 10:16 AM
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AviRaider AviRaider is offline
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Default Re: BREAKING! Woman Killed on Texas Giant!

Yea the ignorant rhetoric and hateful comments from the public is quite old. I'm tired of reading all of the comments, on news sites, from people about how the rides are only staffed by pimple faced under paid teenagers that don't care about safety and just looking to punch the clock. People claiming stories that have warped facts and wrong conclusions.

I read one woman's claim that she was on Judge and that her lap bar came up after she left the station. And there happened to be an employee on the lift, "first hill" as she put it, and yelled to the employee about it. They stopped the ride and checked the lap bar and restarted the ride. I couldn't believe I read that because no way in hell that would or could happen.
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  #27  
Old July 24th, 2013, 11:14 AM
JABBS JABBS is offline
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Default Re: BREAKING! Woman Killed on Texas Giant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonR View Post
For a hydraulic restraint to fail you'd have to have a huge, catastrophic leak in two totally separate, sealed lines.
Am I wrong in assuming that the hydraulic lines are fail safe in the same way as pneumatic clamping brakes on roller coasters or the coach brakes on a railroad train? Fluid is used to release the bars and a catostrophic leak results in the restraints staying locked?

And aren't the restraints on Batman and Superman hydraulic? Pandemonium and Mr. Freeze might use them as well for all I know. They're probably as common now in the industry as ratcheting restraints.

The inflamattory finger pointing toward "bored teens making minimum wage" makes me sick. Amusement parks, especially Six Flags, across the world have used young, low paid workers since the dawn of their existence and still do today.
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  #28  
Old July 24th, 2013, 06:18 PM
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Parktimes Parktimes is offline
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Default Re: BREAKING! Woman Killed on Texas Giant!

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Originally Posted by JABBS View Post
And aren't the restraints on Batman and Superman hydraulic? Pandemonium and Mr. Freeze might use them as well for all I know. They're probably as common now in the industry as ratcheting restraints.
I'm pretty sure that Pandemonium is hydraulic and the rest are still mechanical.
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  #29  
Old July 24th, 2013, 06:58 PM
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cleusk cleusk is offline
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Default Re: BREAKING! Woman Killed on Texas Giant!

The media is just trying to sensationalize this. When a plane crashes, they're deemed as dangerous and unsafe, despite the millions of flights that take place every year. A kid climbs into an animal exhibit and gets attacked. So now, zoos are unsafe. A cable from an elevator snaps, and now elevators are dangerous and unsafe. Someone trips and falls down an escalator, so now escalators are now dangerous and unsafe. And with this latest accident, pneumatic bars are being questioned as being dangerous and unsafe. Take whatever the media says with a dumpster full of salt.
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  #30  
Old July 25th, 2013, 07:06 AM
Krista 96-02 Krista 96-02 is offline
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Default Re: BREAKING! Woman Killed on Texas Giant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parktimes View Post
I'm pretty sure that Pandemonium is hydraulic and the rest are still mechanical.
They are. I'm actually pretty sure those are 100% identical to the restraints on Giant, as they are both Gerstlauer.

Freeze and Batman both still use ratcheting systems. These hydraulic systems are the wave of the future, but I don't think you'll see trains with ratcheting systems overhauled with them.

Excellent research with the articles as well, Davis. Seems to me this witness was either a victim of horrific reporting, or she just made everything up as she went. I had my doubts when I heard the "click" part, but nevermind now. Hopefully they've taken her off the reliable witness list.

Last edited by Krista 96-02; July 25th, 2013 at 07:32 AM.
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